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| First impressions mean everything! |
Notes from my first game vs. High Elves with DE.
- I made a couple of mistakes this game, mainly from rules and some from just being dumb.
- 3 turns into the game and I remember to channel with my warlocks
- First 3 rounds of combat I forgot about murderous prowess, although not too much combat happened
- First round of the game I took 2 wounds on my SS because of miscast and power from darkness rolling a 3 on d3. Also, it effects only the sorcs unit hmm... that limits its use quite a bit I think
- I think a big unit of witches isn't good, too many points that can be redirected and forced to overrun is not ideal
- Executioners rock, keep them, but I need to remove the banner of eternal flame from them
- 4x RBT rocks, keep it, maybe even drop it to 3 to free up points to take more units
- Warlocks are fine, I just need to remember how to play them correctly, lost a unit early due to turn1 charge from Frostheart. It was a misplay on my behalf.
- Monsters having to be within so close of the general because of leadership is a bit of a letdown, really limits their mobility since they're just monsters with no Swiftstride
- Didn't get to experience Dark Magic as much as I wanted. Tome of Furion is decent, but I think it's unneeded. Will be replacing with a scroll.
- As predicted, Frosthearts just kill everything I have. They out-range and out-fight everything that I have except for Executioners, and even so they do massive damage to them.
- My Hydra died instantly to a Giant Blade Prince with Star Lance Noble. He made a long charge I wasn't prepared for and before you know it, he overruns into my back lines.
- Leadership 6 on monsters is just pretty terrible. Even with good play via hammer and anvil, I can't risk losing combat at all with them.
- Need more playtime for Dark Magic, but I was surprised that Black Horror didn't do more damage on his Silver Helms. First round I threw it at the bus and I hit the entire unit, with Prince and Archmage failing their LoS. Unfortunately, they passed both of their saves and it was a good time while only losing 4 SH. Grrrr.
- Monsters do NOT hate High Elves. Speaking of which, do Hatred: High Elves affect the Frostheart? I'm sure it does because I'm assuming High Elves means Army Book: High Elves.
- Frankly, I just played poorly this game in addition to it being my first game with the new book.
I ran with the following list:
2499
11 drops
LORDS:
Lv.4 Supreme Sorc, Tome = 245
Dark Magic
HEROES:
Master BSB, 1+ RR, SoMight = 155
CORE:
34x Witch Elves, FC, Razor Standard = 449
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
SPECIAL:
30x Executioners, FC, Eternal Flame = 400
4x RBT = 280
Hydra, Breath = 180
RARE:
5x Warlocks = 125
5x Warlocks = 125
K-Beast = 160
K-Beast = 160
Some tweaks after the game:
I decided to drop the Hydra, the I2, the price and attacks just aren't worth it imo. I added Shades with GW as a super scout, distraction, damage unit and upped the Executioners a little while dropping the Flaming Banner. My core is now normalized with 3x Dark Riders with a 6x4 unit of Witches. If they die, I know their points went to good use. Kept everything else the same while dropping the Tome on the Supreme Sorc for a Scroll. I'm going to mess around with Dark Magic a little bit more, but on first glance it, it seems that I rather have Shadow (same as High Magic).
Won game 2 vs. HE, but he didn't take a Frostheart.
Game #2 just ended up with me shooting his knight bus to death and killing his Prince with no AS bolt thrower to the stomach.
What I did take away from is...
- He 6-diced Fiery Convocation and killed literally 22 of my 32 Executioners ROFL. It's like a thousand mouths cried out in pain.
- K-Beasts was ready to charge next round, Witches lost combat, broke, got caught and died, then K-Beasts panics off the board. God damn out of leadership bubble and the dude goes running away like a little girl. Jeez man, are these guys even worth it?!?!
- Gotta bring Repeater Bolt Throwers and at least 4 fast cav drops. My unit of 10-12x Shades have been dominating in the games I've been playing. They put out an epic ton of shots and they're very accurate. Those charging them are going to eat S5 GWs in the face at I5 too. Not sure if 200+ points worthy, but I think they're better than Sisters of Slaughter in terms of army placement.
- Still running with just a Lv.4 with a Scroll. Not sure if worth it right now, but she's been doing fine in the Executioner unit.
New list in tow:
2496
11 drops
LORDS:
Lv.4 Supreme Sorc, Scroll = 245
Shadow
HEROES:
Master BSB, 1+ RR, SoMight = 155
CORE:
30x Witch Elves, FC, Razor Standard = 405
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
SPECIAL:
30x Executioners, FC, SoDisc = 405
12x Shades, GW = 216
4x RBT = 280
RARE:
5x Warlocks = 125
5x Warlocks = 125
K-Beast = 160
K-Beast = 160
Just played game #3 with the list right here. Once again, against High Elves and with the newest revised list (above).
- Anyways, my buddy charged a unit of Witches from the front with a Star Dragon and Frostheart. Frostheart takes 7 wounds from poison and dies and Star Dragon gets challenged out and loses combat by 5. General breaks and gets ran down by Witches, lol.
- K-Beasts kind of just sat back again because I'm not sure how to use them yet. They're really slow if you think about it, only averaging 13" on the charge due to monsters and not having Swiftstride.
- I've basically been moving them on the sides of my Executioner unit, and a little bit behind so the Executioners can take the charge first. They're basically two guard dogs from under the sea. Not the best units from what I've seen so far, but with 5 attacks at S7 WS5 I4, they're not too bad.
- Shades are pretty fantastic even though they didn't do much this game. Just having them in the game makes me less worried about Warmachines shooting me in the back, or armored knights coming down the ally. Those are a lot of BS5 S3 AP shots raining down..
- I will probably stay with Shadow for now. Having poison I6 ASF Witches with Mindrazor is just godlike. I can't see any reason to take anything else... unit size will go back up to 30 with Razor Standard.
I leave the day with 2-1 vs. HE, mainly because I played like a tard the first game.
However, this is something I want to try really, really soon.
2496
10 drops
LORDS:
Crone Hellebron = 310
Lv.4 Supreme Sorc, Scroll = 245
Life
HEROES:
Master BSB, 1+ RR, SoMight = 155
CORE:
30x Witch Elves, FC, Razor Standard = 405
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
5x Black Riders, Shield, RXB, Mus = 110
SPECIAL:
28x Executioners, FC, SoDisc = 381
3x RBT = 210
RARE:
5x Warlocks = 125
5x Warlocks = 125
K-Beast = 160
K-Beast = 160
Life spam with Beasts in tow and +Toughness on Witch Elves. Hellebron kills everything because she's a god damn murder stick. WS7 I9 ASF, S10, 7 +D3 attacks base because she has Super Frenzy, re-roll 1s to wound and Poison. All units taking Fear checks with her are -3 Ld. on check. Armored targets beware, you have nowhere to charge. Just keep Hellebron safe on the corner of a unit where the least amount of attacks can get to her, smart use of make way and challenges.
19 comments:
I feel that white lions are the equivalent of executioners than swordmasters to be fair ...
Not sure why your buddy charged star dragon and frost heart headlong into wyches but...I did never think of taking frostheart with dragonlord, definitely something to consider. If you are taking wyches, why not use the blood altar or whatever it is, cauldron of blood? 5+ ward for your unit of wyches means they have some survivability, especially with someone like Krone in your experimental list? I think with monsters, you need to have a general on monsterback to give 18" bubble to make effective. If you dont have that, Id stick with what they always did, 2 hydras to guard flanks and thats it. Also, how come your not taking the executioner character to give frenzy? Worried it will pull them out of formation? Finished my rant. Oh, no, do you find warlocks are stealing power dice from your level 4? Or are they like a warrior priest and you just one dice em?
White Lions are indeed the equiv of Executioners.
To answer a few questions, I'd rather not have multiple units be subject to Frenzy. The extra attack is always welcome, and if I ever feel I need Frenzy on Executioners then I would just stick Hellebron into that unit. Witchbrew is alright as long as you have Ld.10 and BSB re-roll, giving far less chances to fail.
The main thing about the Cauldron is that while it is decent, it's really expensive. If it was a stand alone choice, I would definitely consider taking it, but as of right now, you're subject to the Death Hag tax. If you're going to take a Death Hag, you're essentially 85+ points to something that's going to be drastically expanding your unit of Witches. From my experience, this leads down a very slippery slope. If you take the Cauldron, you want your unit of Witches to be big. You also want to give the Death Hag the BSB because you don't want to pay extra for a Master, and some gear/tools to prolong her existence. Before you know it, you're spending a crazy amount of points to get things going.
Lastly, I do not find Warlocks stealing dice at all. You can't 1-dice any of their spells, but when you miscast on them, you only suffer D3 wounds and you get Ward saves vs. them. They're amazing for what they can do.
how did you get the 1+ RR on the BSB? the reroll talisman. enchanted shield, harmour, cloak and shield?
what would you do for a 2k list?
I like the monsters, and think they can work, but with shades, executioners, srunner chariot and bolt throwers it's hard to find space sometimes. even if the monsters are fairly cheap. I hope to be able to find a good way to use two monsters effectively. not sure which monster I prefer. the hydra seems nice for surviving and having access for a nice breath weapon. but the ST7 and reroll LD business of the K-beast seems excellent.
do you think you will always run wyches as your main core? or would you consider spears or something else?
Nice work Hero. Long time HE player, i'm sorely tempted to try their dark kin, purely from a competitiveness standpoint. Against most the armies i've faced, they have a few more tools than HE to deal with the more ridiculous builds going round. I think the way to make them work against flying demon princes, chimeras etc is to run msu core, so the monster can't find a safe combat to stay in if possible. Little units of 10 witches could still deal damage due to ASF against other core troops, but would not let an unbreakable demon prince hide. You'd also have to be brave to send in a monster against that many poison attacks, for the payoff of gaining only a 200ish point unit. Alternatively corsairs in units of 10 would perform the same job. Probably need at least 2 units of dark riders for redirecting as per usual. Any suggestions?
My newest list is probably something you'll see in most competitive lists. It has Warlocks, K-Beasts (for 5A S7 ea), Executioners, Witches, and enough re-directors and shooting to make yourself known. Once you cleared the field of chaff, you should be able to put out tons of damage on everything on the board. Sure, the K-Beasts will die from cannon fire, but you have a good amount of damage from other sources.
MSU Witches sound like a totally viable way to play too, but right now I'm enjoying the Armor Piercing banner :)
Taking the AP banner just seems like too much temptation to go big with your witches, which makes them an easier unit to deal with for me. Might think about puting the cheaper banners on the little units though, flaming on one, swiftness on another, not for much cost. Its a toss up between msu witches or msu corsairs at the moment, might be worth the stand and shoot reaction with their xbows.
At least with a s5 MM or two available, you could potentially knock out 1-2 t6 chariots in a turn with a bit of luck. Not easy mind you, but i guess you just have to accept that you're giving up those points in most games against ogres or demons. That said, ogres and demons will struggle with the speed of the rest of the army so it might be the only points they get. I think i'd have to come up with a way of keeping those K-bitches within general and BSB range. Perhaps deploy them centrally either side of your main combat block of execs with BSB and Lord. Not many units in the game will stand up to two flank charges by Kbeasts if you can't cannon them off.
Yeah, I think you'll have the tools to deal with those cannon chariots. This includes shooting at them with your RBTs and plentiful shooting as well!
I would probably keep the skeleton of the list looking the same, 2x Warlocks and a K-Beast for Rare, a unit of Executioners for Special with the rest RBTs, Supreme Sorc as Lord, 1+ RR BSB as Hero, Witches and Dark Riders for core
No, I will always run Wiches as core. In this game, getting a large # of kills far outweigh the fact they're running around naked with no saves. Not to mention they're Poison with 3 attacks and ASF.
Heavy Armor, SDC, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might is my currently 1+ RR build.
I'm thinking metal mage as your support lvl 4 in this list? Enchanted blades on the right K-beast could spoil anyones party, even an unkillable DP or chimera.
not sure how I would build the sorceress. I like how you have done it, but am considering one a pegy with the 3++ cloak and scroll. but 345points seem kind of pricy. doable? not sure. morathi for a few points more would prob be better then.
anyways I am thinking some along this line
Supreme sorc w/ lvl4, scroll. 245
BSB same as yours. 155
30 witches w/ FC and Razor standard. 405pts
5 dark riders w/ shield, rxp, mus. 110pts
5 dark riders w/ shield, rxp, mus. 110pts
23 executioners w/ FC, +1ld banner. 321
10 shades w/ GW. 180
2x bolt throwers. 140
K-beast. 160
5 warlocks. 125
this is 1951.
I would like to fit another bolt thrower or warlock unit in, but am not sure of where to get the points. maybe just increase the size of the executions to 27 strong instead? or a 4++ on the sorceress.
What do you think?
Cut a few Shades. 8 is fine.
Your Core shouldn't be that big at 2K either. You can get by with a smaller # of Witches, that'll get you more points.
I've really been liking Shadow as of late. I've also been thinking about Life with Hellebron, but that's a post for another time!
By cutting the witches down to 24 and dropping 2 shades I have 153 points left. That'll get me 2 more bolt throwers
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