Skaven: A more well-rounded list

So many rats, so many possibilities!

After exploring the prospect of fielding double Storm Fiends, I still feel that that particular configuration is not the better list.  If you think about all the weaknesses that Storm Fiends present, there's just too much risk in fielding two units of fatty gun rats.  What if someone brings a shooting dominated list and you're not playing the Storm Banner?  Chances are that you're going to get out-ranged, possibly out-gunned and that you'll have a bunch of dead fatties on the table before they even attempt to make their points back.  This is no good.  You never want to enter any kind of competitive environment where you're banking on your opponents not showing up with particular lists.  That's almost asking for trouble.

Enter the more balanced list:

2400 ETC

12 deploys

LORDS:
Grey Seer, Plague = 275
Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse, Gem
+Screaming Bell = 200

Grey Seer, Ruin = 320
Power Scroll, 4+ Ward

HEROES:
Chieftain, BSB = 124
Halberd, Shield, 4+ Ward Armor

Warlock Engineer = 45
Doomrocket

CORE:
46x Stormvermin, FC, Razor Standard = 392
50x Skaven Slaves, FC = 106
49x Skaven Slaves, FC = 104
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23

SPECIAL:
5x Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings = 90
5x Gutter Runners, Poison, Slings = 90

RARE:
3x Storm Fiends, Rattling Cannons = 255
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Doomwheel = 150

In this list, you basically take everything that's good about Skaven and stick it in one list.  All the characters minus the Doomrocket Caddy sits in the MR2 Stormvermin unit with the Razor Standard.  Depending on the matchup and what the map looks like, you either deploy tight with 5, 7 with 2 on each side, or a full horde with 10 across.  The objective here is that you have 2 Grey Seers slinging magic out from the Bell unit, ODing on Warp Tokens while you push up with Storm Fiends nearby the BSB.  This strongly compliments your already lethal magic phase since Skaven has some of the most brutal ranged magic spells.  I'm trying out the Power Scroll lately because I really want to capitalize on the power of magic so I can take full advantage of my double Grey Seers.  Everyone that matters has a 2++ ward save vs. magic attacks thanks to the Bell, and the 2x units of Gutter Runners will fend off any warmachines that stray too far from support.

The thing I like most about this list is having the 2x WLC and Doomwheel as support for the Storm Fiends.  There are a couple of things that Skaven fear more than anything else and one of them is big monsters and fatties getting into close combat.  If you haven't noticed by now, rats are not the best in close combat and the Skaven try their best to tie up good combat units with plebs while you blast them away with Rattling Cannons and Warp Lightning Cannons.  While the Stormvermin are pretty decent in close combat, Skaven prefer to win the dirty way.  As you can see, this list poses a stronger threat element against more list combinations than just double Storm Fiends.  The WLC gives you confidence that you can destroy clumped up infantry, counter-battery when needed, and provides you with a long-ranged answer to advancing monsters.  Of course, things typically goes to shit if a dragon manages to reach your lines, but that's why you have the Doomwheel to assist in such times.  When things get hairy, send in a spinning rat wheel powered by warp lightning.

Skaven: Storm Fiends and ETC Draft 2.5

Shoot everything that ever lived.

Well, it looks like ETC put some pretty sizable restrictions on Storm Fiends as predicted.  They were a little bonkers against certain list archetypes, but they were not without weakness.  You can find the latest copy of ETC Draft 2.5 here.

Here are my observations:

• They utterly changed the metagame because of their high impact ranged offensive ability.  A unit of 3 puts out 9D6 S5 AP magical shots that re-roll wounds and ignores almost all shooting penalties minus cover.
• They are fragile, and Ld.7 is death magic bait.
• Suffer vs. armies with superior shooting elements: WE, DE, HE, Empire, Dwarves, even Ogres with Leadbelchers. With 18" range and 24" threat total can be counter-deployed by longer shooting elements.
• Suffer vs. light councils, any army with magic missiles, Warlocks will draw dice every time and they cost less than half the points.
• They will do very well vs. knight-heavy armies with minimal shooting, to a point where if you roll well, you will earn at least 2x their points back if played well.
• They can do very poorly vs. armies that have more shooting elements than the Skaven player and thus, are a complete waste of points. A direct comparison can be made with the Abomination, which costs about the same points as 3x Rattling Cannons. In those cases, the Skaven player would rather have the Abom since it can absorb more damage.

Case in point -
Regular Skaven configurations in the Rare slot in ETC, all of which I have played so far:

• Abom, 2x WLC, Doomwheel
• 2x Doomwheel, 2x WLC
• 3x Storm Fiends, 2x WLC, Doomwheel
• Abom, 4x Storm Fiends

Look at what you give for Storm Fiends: The Abomination for its durability and power to kill entire units by itself while not being vulnerable vs. shooting, including cannons (bar the flaming ones). If you take the Abom and Storm Fiends configuration, you give up the ability counter-battery or heavily damage elite units because of the lack of WLC. You also miss out on the Doomwheel, so you lose the ability to deal with monsters that hit close combat.

To sum up Storm Fiends; they are fragile, they are hit and miss, literally, from their 3D6 shot variations to their effect in game vs. different comps. Killing one drops the power of the unit by a third, whereas something like the Ironblaster, Skullcannon, or Organ Gun maintains its power, lethality and ingame effect regardless of power inflicted onto the unit. They are also Rare so if Skaven players must sacrifice other powerful elements in their army to use Storm Fiends.

I can remember these of the top of my head:
2 Games vs. HE
3 Games vs. DE
1 Game vs. WE
4 Games vs. Empire
2 Games vs. Ogres
2 Games vs. Dwarfs
1 Game vs. VC
2 Games vs. WoC

Storm Fiends with Rattling Cannons did major work vs. 2 Empire lists with minimal shooting and knight buses, 2 games vs. Ogres because of 1 Ironblaster and 1 tiny unit of Leadbelchers, absolutely mauled a VC list because he has no shooting and my WLC destroyed the lone Terrorgheist, did serious work against the WoC because of limited shooting. They suffered vs. a light council Empire list and another with knights and heavy shooting, suffer horrendously vs. the Dwarfs because of 30" Organ Guns and super accurate cannons, and suffer vs. 35+ Archer, RBT HE lists with Shadow book, DE was just a pain to play against, possibly even more than WE.

Overall, the Rattling Fiends have some very swingy effects on the metagame.  They can either completely wreck unprepared armies or those with small shooting elements, or they can be utterly destroyed by the right kind of list composition.  This, is a problem in itself because it causes too much polarity in game balance.  No balanced army should show up to an event and just feel like Storm Fiends are uncounterable by their army.  I feel that Vampire Counts eats shit the most from the new gun rats.

With that said, let's explore the latest comp on these guys:

• Each Stormfiend in a unit after the first model 1 pool choice

This basically means that a unit of 3x will cost the army 2 points out of the 5 total that you can take.  I think in its current form, this is pretty fair as you are now locked out of the Storm Banner or other tricks if you take these guys.  This makes shooting armies that much better vs. the Storm Fiends because you can no longer pop banner on their turn after you get a round of successful shooting.  Of course, you can still take 2x units of 3x Rattling Fiends and the Storm Banner if you so choose, but only if you take nothing else.  So what does this mean?  This means that we should test just how truly these Storm Fiends are impacting the meta.  Are they absolutely destroying everything you face?

I want to try double Grey Seer for all the nonsense that you can throw out with enough Warp Tokens.  Essentially everyone important has a 2++ ward vs. magic and the double unit of Rattling Fiends will put down enough lead down field that your opponents' army will either fold, or do have the right elements to fight against it.  Jam up whatever you can with Skaven Slaves and continue to mow down your opponents' stuff while Gutter Runners takes out any warmachines.  The single WLC keeps fatties honest and the rest of the list speaks/shoots for itself.

Skaven: Different list variations

Killing everybody.. yes, yes..

Having played a ton of games with my Skaven on UB so far, I've decided to try a few more list variations.  There's three of them..

Real quick, let's talk about list design in general.  Keep in mind that all of my lists have been designed with ETC Draft 2 in mind.  That's the new hotness where I play and the majority of players on UB are rocking that.  You can find a link to the ETC restrictions in some of my previous posts, and I really suggest you guys give this new version a go.  I was really hating on ETC a couple of years ago because the comp was much harder than I like, but now ETC is considered by most to be light comp with a few tweaks.  This is really good for players like me who likes minimal change to the game while preventing the most heinous power builds from occurring.  The 5 dice cap and LoS on killer death spells is also a blessing.

If you guys are reading this on the East Coast, get ready because ETC will be the main ruleset for majors over there.  Now, let's go over the lists that I've been tinkering with, check it out.

The Two Towers
2399 ETC
11 deploys

LORDS:
Grey Seer = 265
Lore of Ruin
Earthing Rod
+Screaming Bell = 200

HEROES:
Chieftain BSB = 82
Halberd, CShield, Ironcurse

Lv.1 Plague Priest = 129
Flail, Scroll
+Plague Furnace = 150

Warlock Engineer = 45
Doomrocket

CORE:
45x Stormvermin, FC, Storm Banner = 390
50x Skaven Slaves, FC = 106
49x Skaven Slaves, FC = 104
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23

SPECIAL:
32x Plague Monks, FC, Plague Banner = 279

RARE:
1x Hell Pit Abomination, Spikes = 250
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Doomwheel = 150

A few points tweaks here and there, but you'll see mostly good stuff on the lords/heroes selection.  The BSB is a little fragile in there for someone who's going to be on the front lines, but since the entire unit is Unbreakable I'm not all that concerned.  Yes, swinging at the Grey Seer is troublesome and yes, having two giant blocks of infantry will limit my deployment options, but so far I've been very successful vs. the Dwarfs, WoC, Empire and HE lists I've played against.  I don't think most of my opponents faced something like this in a long time and I'm happy to show them that old lists can still work.  The Plague Monks are especially effective against anything Elves once they hit combat, and they absolutely tear up things like BotWD blocks, Halberdiers, and even armor if I force enough wounds.  Even if you stay in there with heavy armor and S3 bounces off you, I don't care either because I'm Unbreakable and my Furnace will be denying combat res and dropping smack in your face every turn while forcing Toughness tests all day.

Rat Storm
2400 ETC
12 deploys

LORDS:
Grey Seer, Ruin = 275
Power Scroll
+Screaming Bell = 200

HEROES:
Chieftain BSB = 122
Halberd, 4+ Ward, Charmed Shield

Lv.1 Plague Priest = 129
Flail, Scroll

Warlock Engineer = 45
Doomrocket

CORE:
45x Stormvermin, FC, Storm Banner = 390
50x Skaven Slaves, FC = 106
50x Skaven Slaves, FC = 106
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23

SPECIAL:
29x Plague Monks, FC, Plague Banner = 258
5x Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison = 90
5x Gutter Runners, Slings, Poison = 90

RARE:
4x Storm Fiends, Rattling Guns = 340
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90

You can either set these Storm Fiends up in 2x2 or 4x1, it doesn't really matter.  You just walk these guys forward and let loose with 12D6 worth of S5 AP magical shots that ignores everything but cover.  Against some lists, they can be utterly fucking ridiculous since it outright murders knight-heavy Empire lists, most VC lists, and mostly any lists that doesn't shoot back or have weaker shooting elements.  They suffer against heavy-shooting armies from Elves and light councils in general, but otherwise they're horrible to deal with if your opponent knows what he's doing.  I'm missing out on the Abomination and Doomwheel in this list, but that's fine as long as I can pour enough hot lead into my opponents to make their points back.  If you think about it, if I eliminate all their shooting options and chaff, the Storm Fiends will walk around, utterly unopposed and kill everything on the board with their shooting.

Now that you guys see the lists, here's some brain cake to think about.  Skaven, being one of the older books, still sports some of the nastiest stuff out there  The biggest boon that Skaven has is their don't care attitude toward elite, heavy armor style armies.  If you're running a knight bus, you might as well pull it from the table when fighting most Skaven lists.  I know for a fact my current VC list will most likely auto-lose to my Skaven because I just have no way of dealing with their damage output from range.  Storm Banner is a luxury and it will seriously hamper armies that rely on ranged shooting, and if I don't need it, I don't need to use it.  In my Two Towers list, a Storm Banner is a huge boon since it can keep my hammer units alive until I reach combat.  In my Rattling Fiend list however, they are less useful because it also impacts my shooting.

Another really ridiculous thing about the new Storm Fiends is that they add another dimension of power and confusion for your opponents.  During list construction, do they build to fight something like the Abom, Wheel and 2x WLC configuration or do they anticipate facing the 4x Rattling Fiends?  What about 2x units of Rattling Fiends or a unit with Grinder Fist?  Do they anticipate the Gutter Runners which is generally weaker vs. heavy armor lists with minimal shooting, but can they risk drawing a Skaven running max shooting?  How will armies that rely on breaking enemies and minimal attrition handle 2 huge Unbreakable blocks that can potentially ignore armor saves?  What if I have that Assassin with Weeping Blade and Potion of Strength?  The only thing that's really apparent to me now since the release of the Storm Fiends is how much they're going to change how people view Skaven.  If they were Special like some people suggest, they would be utterly broken.

I suspect that we might see a +1 restriction for Storm Fiends and maybe even more if I take the Grinder Fist on one of them.  Having them come up on the backfield of my opponents and blast away his stuff after charging a WM is kinda ridiculous.  Regardless, if ETC comps them, I can just swap out the Storm Banner with Razor Standard and call it a day.

WHFB: It's official, I'm restarting Skaven

The feeling when WLC scores a direct hit..

I owned the army a few years back and I've had a lot of fun with it.  As times changed and I wanted to play something else, I eventually sold off the army and forgot about it.  Thankfully, a couple of weeks ago, I was digging through the garage and found a bunch of stuff left.  Lo and behold, The End Times are upon us now and I'm getting the urge to play the army again.  I seeked out some of my contacts and immediately re-purchased the elements I need, so if anyone has some leftover IoB rats that they're not assembling, let me know!

Here is what my current army looks like under the 2400 ETC format:

2399 ETC
11 deploys

LORDS:
Grey Seer = 265
Lore of Ruin
Dispel Scroll
+Screaming Bell = 200

HEROES:
Chieftain BSB = 74
Shield, Halberd

Lv.1 Plague Priest = 116
Plague Censer
+Plague Furnace = 150

Warlock Engineer = 45
Doomrocket

CORE:
45x Stormvermin, FC, Storm Banner = 390
50x Skaven Slaves, FC = 106
49x Skaven Slaves, FC = 104
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23
1x Giant Rat Pack = 23

SPECIAL:
35x Plague Monks, FC, Plague Banner = 300

RARE:
1x Hell Pit Abomination, Spikes = 250
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
1x Doomwheel = 150

If some of you remember, this is my Two Towers list and is a pretty old school army.  I maximize on what I view to be the best units in the book while keeping everything under restrictions.  No Gutter Runners are in this list so it's susceptible to enemy WM shooting, but the combat blocks are rock solid and the rare choices are maxed for dealing death.

At 2500 points and in unrestricted WHFB, that's when I add a few more nasty toys like Brass Orb and Death Globe, but for now, this is looking pretty good.  I've had a few games with this list on UB and I've been doing quite well with it.

More squeeky rat stuff

So after my friend kindly gifted me 4 Skaven IoB sets, I decided to place the order for the rest of the stuff.  Looks like I'll be quiet for the next couple of weeks or so since I'll be busy building all my rats.  I figured I'll do rats first and then Ogres.

Anyways, here's the army now.  I dropped the Stormvermin and took Plague Monks instead.  I like Clan Pestilens stuff more anyways.  The Doomwheels because I think they're funny and double Warp Lightning Cannons because I can.  I have no idea why I took the Bell other than it looks really cool, but I have no idea how they're going to preform on the battlefield.

Anyone know where to get cheap rats for Giant Rat bases?  There's no way I'm going to buy those ridiculous GW ones.  Here's the list:

2498
12 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Grey Seer (Condenser) = 260
Lore of Ruin
+Screaming Bell = 200

HEROES:
Chieftain (BSB, Shield) = 72
Warlock Engineer (Brass Orb) = 65
Warlock Engineer (Doomrocket) = 45
Lv.1 Plague Priest (Flail, Scroll) = 129
+Plague Furnace = 150

CORE:
40x Clanrats (FC) = 200
+Poison Wind Mortar = 65
36x Clanrats (FC) = 182
+Poison Wind Mortar = 65
50x Skavenslaves (Musician) = 102
50x Skavenslaves (Musician) = 102
6x Giant Rats (Handler) = 23
6x Giant Rats (Handler) = 23

SPECIAL:
40x Plague Monks (FC, Plague Banner) = 335

RARE:
Doomwheel = 150
Doomwheel = 150
Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
Warp Lightning Cannon = 90

What the hell! Skaven!

This must be some crazy shit, but I just involved in Skaven too!

My friend gave me a whole bunch of unassembled Skaven stuff and that's enough for me to really get started on the army.  A few bucks here and there and I should have a huge army.  That's pretty good considering I didn't spend anything on the Ogres.  My only problem is.. I have limited amounts of experience with and against the rats.  I've been developing a list lately and it looks something like this.

Keep in mind that I have rules!

• The first rule is that I wanna take Queek Headtaker because I like his fluff and his rules.
• I will not be using the Hell Pit Abomination.  I hate the model, hate the rules and I don't want to hear people bitch.
• Out of all the clans, I think I like Clan Pestilens the most.  Hence why I have some of the Poison Wind stuff.

Here's the list:

2500
14 drops

LORDS:
Queek Headtaker = 215
Lv.4 Grey Seer (Scroll) = 265
Lore of Ruin

HEROES:
Chieftain (BSB, Shield) = 72
Warlock Engineer (Brass Orb) = 65
Warlock Engineer (Doomrocket) = 45
Lv.1 Warlock Engineer (Condenser) = 85
Lore of Ruin

CORE:
35x Super Stormvermin (FC, Razor Standard) = 455
35x Clanrats (FC) = 242.5
+Poison Wind Mortar
35x Clanrats (FC) = 242.5
+Poison Wind Mortar
40x Skavenslaves (Musician) = 82
40x Skavenslaves (Musician) = 82
6x Giant Rats (Handler) = 23
6x Giant Rats (Handler) = 23
6x Giant Rats (Handler) = 23

RARE:
Doomwheel = 150
Doomwheel = 150
Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
Warp Lightning Cannon = 90
Plagueclaw Catapult = 100

My biggest problem is that I don't know what's acceptable as core and what formation the units will be in.  I know how to do elite and expensive armies, but an entire made of random fodder is new to me.  I mean, look at how many models this is!  It's insane..

The Super Stormvermin is upgraded with Queek's benefits.  WS5, S5 with Halberds and Razor Standard is pretty insane for damage.  Right now, I'm thinking about putting them in 7x5 formation.  Does this work?  Or should I spend the points to get a bigger unit in general and put them in Horde formation?

What about the rest of the core?  Clanrats should be 5x7 deep and Skavenslaves is 5x8.  How does that look?  The Rat Darts are there for deployment reasons and the rare slot is filled with all kinds of crazy contraptions.  Doomwheels do good amounts of damage once they start blasting into combat and I've seen Warp Lightning Cannons do crazy stuff.  The Plagueclaw is there to drop Large Templates (great vs. Warriors of Chaos!) with no armor saves and the rest of stuff is pretty self-explanatory.

Thoughts?  It looks pretty solid to me but I'd like to know your opinions.

PS - I must be crazy to take this army with so many projects already.. but the price was just too good to pass up on.