Daemons of Chaos rework?

Oh man.. where to begin?

This pertains to Warhammer Fantasy!

I haven't responded in this thread for a while now ever since this post a while back:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/inde...post&p=22110171

I find it quite amusing that the thread goes dead quiet after I respond with actual industry experience calling GW out on their shenanigans.

Even though I've been playing my Deamons still, because you know, they're one of the armies that I own and love, I can't help but feel sadness, contempt and frustration over a lot of the design mechanics.

One recent quote in this thread upset me more than it should have:
I found myself mainly agreeing with Phazaels points. We are top tier army and have many good builds we can use, so overall the book is very good stuff.

Do you think just because the book plays well at competitive levels with a few builds (Nurgle, beasts, khannons, choir) means it's a good book? In all my years of game design, this is the number one fallacy that competitive players, pro players or those heavily involved in WAAC play present over and over again. Hey, the book is super strong in the meta, it must mean its a good book.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. This is the worst mentality to have! You have to look at the big picture, the product as a whole and weigh it against others of its kinds (in this case, other army books). What you have here, in the 8th Ed. army book, is a piece of garbage unlike any other. You see some good design ideas that brings Chaos back to its roots, but what you have here is poor implementation, demonstration of poor or no internal testing, and awful execution in relation to big picture. Chief among those design ideas is the universally loathed Reign of Chaos table which not only takes tactics out of the players hands constantly without any form of negation, double-punishes the player, and draws out the game. Every single aspect of that table is a negative, even the benefits that it could possibly offer the Daemon player still needlessly prolongs the game (which is a negative in itself).

The area that they did alright in was the magic items. Sure, it wasn't the best implementation, but it wasn't the worst either. It's actually quite difficult to analyze the cost-effectiveness of all the BRB items while designing new daemon-specific gifts and weighing the effectiveness of both if you included all the items. Weapons should of been available to all, and maybe it would of been good to make Arcane as a secondary for Tzeentch, Armor to Khorne, Talisman to Nurgle and Enchanted to Slaanesh like some of suggested, but this is some serious item combinations to consider, and much more playtime and analysis needs to be done before its called good.

This ultimately brings me to my point, so in the case of the 5 biggest misses in the entire book, I don't have 5 I only have 3. The last one is internal pricing. External balance aside, there's just absolutely no justification to have ridiculously weak Heralds be overpriced and have what appears to be randomly priced locuses at the same time. There's no reason why a GOOD design feature such as the flexibility of heralds and different locuses should be priced to an extent where no one would take them, ever. Why are Beasts their price or Khannons their price? If they are going to be that good, why price them the way they are?

Enter the post I made months ago, sometime around our army book's release. NO ONE with any sense of intelligence did any playtesting with this book. As a industry professional who has been focused on multiplayer gameplay and game balance for the last 12 years, I can say with confidence that no respectable game company could release such a product if they did any playtesting or implemented feedback from intelligent people. No one with a sane mind would say that that Skull Cannon is well-priced at 135 if they actually played the game, and that's a fact.

So for the folks they did playtesting for this game, I can only say that they're either lying, or outright bad, or GW deliberately ignored your feedback and released an unfinished, unpolished product.

Let's talk about the top 3 things they did right, from a broad, design overview perspective without regards to how it was actually implemented.

Good idea, poor implementation:

• Bring Chaos back to its roots, random tables for gifts with the ability to default to 0.
• Introduction of different Loci that provides players with more options, customization and playstyle.
• Bring back mono-God viability and re-implement God rivalries.

Bad idea, even worse implementation:

• Reign of Chaos table is a negative in every way, function and form. If something of this must be implemented, it should look similarly to the HE Phoenix table where it only affects the Daemon player, should not be a giant kick in the balls if you roll low already, and is not punishing to the extreme. Numbers wise, it should not the outcome of the army the player purchased, designed, painted and fielded, and should not affect battlefield tactics at all. At least 40K was sane enough to mitigate the effects of a bad roll with Instruments, exactly how disconnected was the design team in this regard? Do musicians not exist?
• The internal pricing of some of these units and upgrade options are beyond laughable. It's to a point where some units are unplayable and a perfectly good design idea (different Loci) isn't even used! That's just awful.
• There was no visible playtesting that took place with this book (bad idea). No experienced player would say Khorne is fine, Tzeentch matches their fluff, Nurgle is perfectly balanced compared to everyone else, and Caco Choir shouldn't be 6-diced in every game. I can't even say model sales are the cause of this, considering they have piles of Slaaneshi chariots building up because they're garbage ingame but good looking models otherwise. The 135 point Skullcannon though, that raises some eyebrows because maybe 1/10 people I've talked to actually liked the model.

How I would of done things:

• If Reign of Chaos has to exist, I would of built it with 3 must-have design clauses in mind: It will not affect player tactics, it will not apply a double negative, it will not draw out the game.

Quick idea:
Either make it resemble the HE Phoenix chart, or have it only affect the game if the rolls equate to 6, 7, 8 or 9 for the corresponding God's unholy numbers and effects. Notice how that's only 4 results and not 11? 6-7-8 is more towards the average roll and thus, the results that happen the most. For this reason, the player should have things happen, but not an exaggerated or harsh result. 9 is the furthest of the spectrum, so it should be slightly more powerful, but not to the extent where it gives a overwhelming double positive to the Daemon player. Hell, if this isn't fast enough, we can even say that 6 only powers Slaanesh units and hates on Khorne and that's it. No rolling for other players units because these already benefits yours.

• Internal pricing of units and upgrades will be reworked and given better prices to increase viability and Loci.

Quick idea:
Let's not make 135 point Skull Cannons and focus more on overpriced Slaaneshi Chariots.

• The Random Gifts table will have god-specific gifts if they choose to go with a 0.

Quick idea:
There's a million and a half unused Daemonic gifts that are obviously god-specific that are unused from the last book. For some of you who did not play the previous edition of Daemons..
Bloodthirsters could take..
Awesome Strength, Dark Insanity, Obsidian Armor, Axe of Khorne, Firestorm Blade, Immortal Fury, Spellbreaker, Armor of Khorne, Collar of Khorne
Lord of Change..
Twin Heads, Tzeetnch's Will, Staff of Change, Spell Destroyer, Power Vortex, Dark Magister, Daemonic Robes, Flames of Tzeentch, Iridescent Corona, Master of Sorcery
Great Unclean One..
Balesword, Nurgling Infection, Staff of Nurgle, Trappings of Nurgle, Noxious Vapours, Pestilent Mucus, Nurgle's Rot, Soul Hunger, Stream of Bile, Slime Trail
Keeper of Secret ..
Spirit Swallower, Etherblade, Temptator, Allure of Slaanesh, Daemonic Robes, Enrapturing Gaze, Siren Song, Soul Hunger, Soporific Musk, Torment Blade

So to sum it up really quick, I would eliminate the doubles, fine-pick some of these to be used as alternative Exalted, Greater and Lesser Gifts for players can choose from that are God-specific.

1 Exalted, 2 Greater, 3 Lesser that are God-specific for example, so someone like Tzeentch can default 0 to a choice of Tzeetch's Will (just the name) as an Exalted Choice, Mastery of Sorcery as a Greater choice, or Flames of Tzeentch as a lesser choice. This will ensure that someone like the Bloodthirster, will always be able to default to Armor of Khorne or Obsidian Armor if he so chooses.

Daemons of Chaos rework anyone?  Should I?  I think it would be a fun side-project!

My WHFB Daemons list

"It granted me all that I desired; but took from me all that I valued.
I would give anything to look upon its beauty once again."
- Liber Malefic

What?  Just because you think I hate the army book means I'm going to stop playing the army?  No way!  It's true, I don't like the new book.  I think it forces you into fairly specific choices and it doesn't have the army diversity as the last book.  Gone are the days of mono-Tz and Khorne and welcome your new overlords Nurgle and Slaanesh!

Anyways, here's my list at 2500:

2494
10 deploys

LORDS:
Lv.4 Keeper of Secrets = 580
Lore of Slaanesh
Greater Gift, 2 Lessers

HEROES:
Lv.1 Herald of Slaanesh = 130
Lesser Locus of Grace
Lore of Slaanesh

Herald of Slaanesh = 120
Lesser Locus of Grace
BSB

CORE:
30x Daemonettes (FC, BoSwiftness) = 375
29x Daemonettes (FC) = 349

SPECIAL:
5x Seekers of Slaanesh = 100
5x Seekers of Slaanesh = 100
4x Fiends of Slaanesh = 260
5x Furies of Slaanesh = 60

RARE:
Skull Cannon of Khorne = 135
Skull Cannon of Khorne = 135
Burning Chariot of Tz = 150

Looks like GW is again making us multi-god.  The Skull Cannons of Khorne are just too good not to take and makes up for the fact that Flamers are weaker.  I like the 1-of Burning Chariot because even though it's random, it's a flying chariot that can potentially do a lot of damage.  It's probably a good thing that my opponents ignore it.

Lastly, two solid blocks of Daemonettes with Seekers to hunt warmachines, Fiends to hunt Vanguard units/flank charge + add combat res, and Furies purely for deployment fodder.  Both of my Heralds make the Daemonette units immune to Dwellers, and the Lv.4/1 will be carrying Lore of Slaanesh.  ASL is almost as good as ASF, not really, but it'll allow me to get in my shots before my girls get chopped up.

What do you guys think of the list?

WHFB Review: Daemons of Chaos

Oh how the mighty have fallen..

In this review, I'm going to dissect the army book down into three key sections.  We're going to talk about the Overall Design, Internal Balance and External Balance.  I'm not going to beat around the bush here, just get down to the nitty gritty.  This is going to be one serious review, prepare yourself.

1750 Daemonic Evolution

If only the god damn KoS had Beast..

Yup, I keep posting lists because I love it.  No, really, what it is is me playing an ass ton of games and figuring out what works and what doesn't.  Here's what the list looks like now:

1745

HQ:
Lv.3 Lord of Change = 305
Divination, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
Beguilement, 1x Lesser Gift

Herald of Slaanesh = 80
Seeker, Grace, 1x Lesser Gift

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Champ, Instrument) = 195
10x Plaguebearers (Champ) = 95
10x Plaguebearers (Champ) = 95

FAST ATTACK:
20x Seekers (Champ, Icon) = 255
9x Screamers of Tz = 225

HEAVY:
Seeker Cavalcade (2/1 Exalted) = 155
Seeker Cavalcade (2/1 Exalted) = 155
Burning Chariot of Tz = 100

• Lord of Change is still there with Divination.
• Heralds of Slaanesh are still there; one to lead the Seekers and one for the Daemonettes.
• Only 2 MSU units of PBs to hold points, they DS on later or start on the map depending on many VPs there are.
• New units here:  Double Seeker Cavalcades and 9x Screamers of Tz.  Why?  Because they are freaking fast, adds as a force multiplier, and can't be ignored.  When 20 Seekers, 9 Scramers, a total of 16 AV11 Hull Points, a Burning Chariot, and a Lord of Change is running straight into your lines, there's just too much to shoot everything.  The AV11 gives me immunity to bolters, answers MEQ in cover and provides something the daemon army desperately needs:  meat.
• Again, I'm going for the offensive take on things, needing the Plaguebearers to score and that's it.  If I wanted to play D, I would play Nurgle.  You guys should know by now that that isn't my cup of tea.  I like it fast, really fast.

Remember, the name of the game is speed!

Update:

Last night I played against a SW/IG list
He had a Griffon, 2 units of scoring autocannons + guardsman, led by a Runepriest behind an ADL with 2 Longfang squads w/ missiles. 3 units of Greys in drop pods, Wolf Lord + 2 thunderwolves riding shotgun. And a Vendetta with Plasma Gun Vets and a CCS.

A pretty good list, but not over the top or hardcore competitive.

The mission was 1 VP each, long ways deployment, PLUS he seized on me. My LoC rolled re-roll invuls, had the Staff and S8 AP1 Lance 18". Rest of my guys took Etherblades. Although the seize was kinda bad, the remaining Chariots charged and killed one GH squad by themselves. LoC + Screamers killed the other squad that came down. Rest of the army ran up, with the Seekers taking the brunt of the damage.

The thing to take away from this was: I was able to relocate my entire army to his southern and exposed flank. Literally, in a blink of an eye, everything turbo-boosted, flew, and ran half way across the map and into one concentrated area, true Blitzkrieg style. I continued to do a sweeping advance upwards and forced a major victory, snatched from the jaws of an early seize.

I love how fast the army is and this is the one I'm probably going to stick with. The obvious weakness is heavy air, but with all those points spent on units that come in on reserve, I'm more than happy killing everything else and making my way across the field unopposed.

Skull Cannons of LOL

Game balance is a myth.

You know, not a lot of things bother me in WHFB and 40K, but some things are just unacceptable.

Most players consider the Ogre Kingdom's Iron Blaster to be overpowered already.  Here, you have the Skull Cannon for 135 points [talking about WHFB here].  It's a Daemon of Khorne, has T5 with 3+/5++, moves 7", fires a flaming, magic cannon, has the combat stats that makes even combat units weep, has S6 Impact hits that regains wounds.

We have a problem here folks, 3 problems in fact:

1. The designers there have no idea what game balance is, both internally and externally.  At this point, we're assuming they're just doing random shit, and any sense of game balance is just pure luck.
2. The playtesters they hire don't know what they're doing, or how to playtest, or recognize potentially abusive, undercosted, or overcosted units.  Either way, I don't know what's going on in this department.  Anyone with half a brain would immediately recognize the problem with a unit like this.  It's really that obvious.
3. Lastly, and possibly the worst thing of all:  GW is just trying to sell models that aren't selling well, or they know aren't going to sell well, with purposely abusive rules.  The thought of them making poor rules just to models is horrifying.  You know what, it might not even be the designer's call at this point.  If your boss comes up to you and says "make this model sell or gtfo", what would you do?

What do you guys think?  How does something like the Skull Cannon make it past the design studio?

Multi-god is the way to go

Everyone but Khorne.

New list:

1849

HQ:

Lv.3 Lord of Change = 305

Divination, 2x Greater Gifts, 1x Lesser Gift

Herald of Slaanesh = 85

Beguilement, 1x Lesser Gift

Herald of Slaanesh = 80

Seeker, Grace, 1x Lesser Gift

Herald of Nurgle = 80

Fecundity, 1x Lesser Gift

TROOP:

20x Daemonettes (Champ, Instrument) = 195

11x Plaguebearers (Champ, Icon) = 114

10x Plaguebearers (Champ) = 95

10x Plaguebearers (Champ) = 95

FAST ATTACK:

20x Seekers (Champ, Icon) = 255

HEAVY:

Seeker Cavalcade (2/1 Exalted) = 155

Soul Grinder (Nurgle, Phlegm) = 180

Burning Chariot (Horrors) = 110

FORT:

Aegis + Quad-Gun = 100

After several games, I've decided to change my Slaanesh/Tz force into a more diverse multi-god force minus Khorne. As awesome as the dogs, Crushers + Karanak is, I want the majority of my fighting force to be Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Nurgle are there simply because I need objective drivers. Their T4 and natural Shrouded gives them unmatched resilience when compared to the other gods. Especially since the Herald is T5, gives the squad FNP and they hide behind the ADL (thus getting a 2++ cover), hopefully by an objective. For some wild reason, the Nurgle Herald has BS5, so he mans the Quad-Gun and all is well.

The rest of the units here are pretty self-explanatory. The Seeker Cavalcade pushes up with the Seekers, Burning Chariot (if needed) and the Lord of Change, while the rest of the army sits back. I will hold 1-2 units of PBs in reserve, just in case they need to grab separate points around the map, or if they need to backup the primary objective holders on the ADL. The Icon will guide them there.  Lord of Change picks up Divination and spellslings his way to victory, buffing and nerfing units as he please.

Once the Seekers move into a good position, the 20-man unit of Daemonettes will enter, hopefully get a good D3+6" Run roll, and join the upcoming slaughter. The Soul Grinder will sit behind the ADL to support the scoring PB unit.  Since he is behind the Quad-Gun itself, he will benefit from a cover save.

Icon hopping, Instruments and more

To change or not to change..

The one thing that I really like about the new book is how the Icons and Instruments were designed.

Say you have two units in reserve, the layout is exactly the same and both have Icons and Instruments.  Let's just pretend its a 20-man unit of Daemonettes, led by a Herald of Slaanesh each.  Then let's say you have a unit of Seekers with an Icon that's already somewhere in mid-field.  Turn 2 comes and you start itching to roll your reserves.  You point at the first unit that has an Icon and you roll the die.  The result is a 3 and you glee with joy!  That unit will not only DS without error within 6" of your Icon from the Seekers, but will also drag in the other unit of Daemonettes as well.

But wait, there's a catch.  Since your unit of 20 Daemonettes also has a Icon, the second unit that comes in from the Instrument can now home in directly on top of the fresh Icon.  This gives you precision-based DS assaults with a 2-1 bonus.  Unfortunately, this only happens once, or else you'll be rippling the entire army into your enemies face on T2.  If the first roll to reserve doesn't hit the 3+, you still have another chance to 2 for 1 if you have say 3 units that have the Instrument.  With a 6" Icon to DS in, a 2-1 reserve roll can have you hopping 12" across the map provided you have 2 Icons.  This can drastically increase the range of your Horrors if they need to deliver some shots.

The one thing to remember here is that you don't always have to buy the Icon, and you don't always have to buy the Instrument.  Icons should be on units that you want your other units to home in on.  These are fast delivery type units such as Plague Riders, Seekers or Bloodcrushers, or back-field heavy blocks that might need support; such as a 20-man unit of Plaguebearers with FNP Herald behind an ADL.  Instruments, on the other hand, should only be taken on units that you need to come in with urgency.  These include frontline units such as Herald-led Daemonettes or Bloodletters.

You know what has been aching me these last couple of days?  Horrors.  I love fact that a Lv.3 Herald with 20 Horrors generates a total of 8d6 S6 shots.  What I absolutely hate about them is that they first have to pass a psychic test, two of them in fact.  Then your opponent gets to Deny them, twice (provided the Herald is there, which he should), then you have to roll to see how many shots you get, with both, then you have to hit, one at BS4 and the other at BS3, and then you have to wound.  Why on earth is this so clunky?  As stupid as the tally keeping is, I just don't think any type of basic attack should ever get denied.  I had a game the other day where in one game, my Horror unit failed to cast once, and got denied another.  Towards the end of the game, they only got off a few shots (literally, I rolled a low # of shots) before being gunned down.  That's ~300 some points not being able to do any damage before the dice even start rolling.

Having played some games with Daemons, I'm seriously considering dropping the Slaanesh and Tzeentch theme and going with a mixed-god approach.  I'm talking about some PBs to hold points, Seekers and Daemonettes for attacking, a Lord of Change for buffs/beats, and some Nurgle Soul Grinders to hold down the fort.  Who knows, I might even add some Karnak and Flesh Hounds to really seal the deal.  Maybe this is what the designers (Cruddace and Kelly) wanted.  If this is so, then why is Nurgle so good!

Some thoughts on Daemons

You have chosen poorly.

After playing a few games with the new Daemons for 40K, I must say that random is the least of your worries.

In all the games I've played so far, the Warpstorm table has been quite useless.  Its purely luck based, so what did you expect?  A few examples would be me not having any Khorne units on the battlefield so nothing effected me.  I rolled for all his units and didn't get a single 6.  On the turn I did hit a unit, I didn't wound.  In one game, I even rolled an 11 and he had 2 Librarians on the field.  He crossed his fingers and rolled a 7 on 3 dice, OK.

Daemons die in droves.  There's not a single unit in my army that's not vulnerable to the mass shooting that 40K brings to the table.  It's to a point where I'm thinking about replacing all my Daemonettes with Horrors because it's just getting ridiculous.  Imagine you're running around a war-torn sci-fi universe and you were wearing nothing but a bikini.  Yup, that's what T3 5++ is in a nutshell.  Fast or not, my Daemons get shot to shit whenever they're on the battlefield.  Frag missiles especially are painful, but the most common battlefield weapon, the Bolter, is the worst offender of all.  Even getting my 20-man units into battle seems like a challenge.

Even something like a Lord of Change, which is a Flying MC, takes a serious beating with so much firepower present on the battlefield.  Last night, I rolled re-roll invuls and 4+ FNP and he still took 3 wounds from pure weight of fire.  In a previous game, he just got hunted down and killed by 2 Dakka Flyrants.  With their ability to Enfeeble and ID most of your multi-wound Elites and hunt down any of your Greater Daemons, I feel that's quite a bad matchup.  I feel so bad for the Keeper of Secrets because he actually has to run across the field to do anything.  Deep striking him is the only way to get him closer.

I love the mechanics behind Icons and Instruments.  When I come on with one unit, that unit brings the other one in right on top of the banner he's holding.  Now that's what I call synergy.  The only real letdown of that is that now I more accurate ways to DS in, I can't hold everything back in reserve.  This means no matter what, half of your army will be vulnerable to the predations of long-range weaponry.  The Greater/Lesser gifts and stuff isn't bad either.  Last night, I had my Lord of Change roll Instant Death for his Warlord Trait while sporting a S8 AP2 Concussive Warpdoom weapon.  That just screams amazing.  The game before saw me roll the S8 AP1 Lance and +1W, those are great as well.  Even my Herald + 20 Daemonettes in reserve love seeing the +1 reserve roll for that unit from the Lesser Gift table.

Although Fantasy has a worse book imo, 40K is truly a shooting man's game.  At least 6th Ed. is at least.  Expect your units to die, a lot, and that doesn't feel good at all.  Everyone knows that T3 is a huge liability and that's why I think Nurgle is going to be so strong.  They're literally the only God that doesn't suffer from 40K's array of mass shooting to victory.  High Toughness, plentiful FNP, multiple wounds, and Shrouded gives you a ton more staying power than the other gods.  Aside from taking Nurgle units, I literally feel that you're playing a different game than everyone else.

A quick winners and losers table?  Well, you guys have seen my 1750.  Honestly, the losers are everything that's not the Lord of Change and Seekers.  Everyone else just hits combat too slowly or dies in droves.  I'm seriously thinking about just taking Tz Heralds with Horrors and form a gunline, with Seekers and Daemonettes in counter-charge range or reserved for DS.  The Tz Chariots are decent, and that's only because I'm playing them as Fast Skimmers atm.  I need the Masque to be a Herald so I can 4:1 her, simply because she can add a ton of flexibility to any list.  Definitely more testing is needed, but these are my observations right now.

My Daemons at 1750

Change is good.

Alright, so here's the list.  Keep in mind that it's a themed army with a focus on Slaanesh and Tzeentch.  It's really speedy, but definitely has a fair amount of trouble with anti-air.  In fact, it doesn't have any!  I played a game yesterday where the LoC just got gunned down by dual Dakka Flyrants.  In fact, I think that particular match up would be a very tough for Daemons in general.

Here's what the list looks like:

1690

HQ:

Lv.3 Lord of Change = 305

Divination, 2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift

Herald of Slaanesh = 85

1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 85

1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 80

1 Lesser Gift, Lesser Locus, Seeker

TROOP:

20x Daemonettes (Champ, Instrument) = 195

20x Daemonettes (Champ, Instrument) = 195

10x Daemonettes (Champ) = 95

10x Daemonettes (Champ) = 95

FAST ATTACK:

20x Seekers (Champ, Icon) = 255

HEAVY:

Burning Chariot = 100

Burning Chariot = 100

Burning Chariot = 100

It's 60 points short of 1750 due to a number of things.  The first one is that I'm waiting on GW's ruling for Masque being a Herald because I would love to include her in my army.  The second would be the Burning Chariots shooting like Fast Skimmers.  If the Burning Chariots are not ruled that way, I might just weep tears of sorrow because those models are fantastic and no one will buy them, including me.

To explain the drop of the Keeper and the replacement of the Lord of Change, two reasons.  The first would be to have Divination in the army.  The second would be to have a Greater Daemon that can do work.  With S8 AP2 Concussive Warpdoom, I'm very pleased with the weapon that the Lord of Change can take.  Seekers act as a moving beacon that can drop in both 20-packs of Daemonettes onto the front lines while Big Bird flies in the skies to assist.

The lack of anti-air frightens me a lot because Helldrakes, Dakka Flyrants, or Razorwings would tear this army a new one.  Sadly, the AA options for Daemons is a bit lackluster.  Even the Soul Grinder delivering 3 shots at BS3 S7 isn't going to have much of an impact.  What's going to stop the air units in the game from strafing and killing everything you have in a predominately ground-based, melee army?  Vector Striking DPs don't do enough damage to the likes of a Stormraven, and most of the air units are able to deliver their payload and zoom away before you can catch them.

Just food for thought.

Who says Daemons can't be competitive?

Har har har..

It might not be fluffy, or fun to play, or enjoyable for either party, but Chaos Daemons have quite a bit of flexibility.  Just by looking at the codex, I can see some craziness arise.

Mainly these combinations:

• A Lord of Change with Divination is probably the strongest of the GD choices.  Divination in general is just really strong.  The GUO with Lv.3 Biomancy is also a fair contender.
• Taking Heralds of Nurgle with FNP, with AP2 weapons.
• Troops should all be PBs with the Heralds, to sit in cover and take points, as well as being the most resilient of all the choices.
• Take 3 Nurgle Soulgrinders with Phlegm to sit in Ruins and crap on everyone with 2+ cover and 36" S8 AP3 Ord Large Blasts.
• Fill in the rest with Plague Riders, Beasts, Seekers or Screamers.  Honestly, you can pretty much freestyle at this point.

So what does this mean?  It means it's a really good time to be Nurgle.

The Plague Riders are great units, so are the Beasts.  With access to some kind of Divination in the army, the power level of just magnified to ridiculous amounts.  Unfortunately, you will not see me making any of these lists!

Here's a sample of what an optimized, competitive army could look like:

Good job GW, nice FAQ

Good job guys, really.

From the German site, because they always get stuff faster than us:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3080052a_GER_Chaosdaemonen_v1.0a_Maerz13.pdf

Google translate:

Errata
Page 26 - demon of Tzeentch
replace the last sentence with the following: "In addition
Tzeentch demons repeat all protection drafts
of 1 "
Page 49, 100, Sections - disease drones device-type,
change the device-type to "cavalry with schwebemo
Module "or cavalry with floating module (Charaktermo
dell) ".
Page 66 - powerful rewards, Obesity
change the sentence as follows: "the demon has +1 life
point and the special rule it does not die. "
Page 104 - demon of Tzeentch
Change the last half sentence as follows: "protect drafts of 1
be "repeated.
Summary - Icon of Chaos
replace the first paragraph with the following: "If
you the melee bestimmst result, you add one
Results point to your website, in particular if the
melee at least one friendly unit with an
Bound icon of chaos. "

Do they not realize they didn't answer a single thing people are looking for?

NOTHING about the Tzeentch Chariot.
NOTHING about Masque and Blue Scribes not being Heralds.
NOTHING about Fiends reducing I to 0.
NOTHING about Heralds being Primary detachment only.
...etc

Amazing.

I'm so sorry WHFB Daemon players

RIP Great Book

Some of the things in here just doesn't make sense.

• There's no magic armor in the entire book, only some makeshift gift, which is also inconsistent with design fluff.
• You cannot swap any of the gifts for armor, only subpar weapons.
• The gifts are horribly overpriced compared to 40K.
• The Bloodthirster is only wearing Heavy Armor, but are wearing 3+ in 40K.
• Flying units are not the same as 40K, where you need Skyfire to shoot.  A cannon can bring about the ruin of your expensive Greater Daemon with ease.
• There is no dispel scroll in the book.
• The prices for some of these Locus just doesn't make ANY sense.  Some are 5 points, some are the price of the Herald itself and are nowhere near as good as the cheaper ones.
• The prices for everything players own has increased, the prices for everything they might not decreased.  In the case of the Skull Cannon, the thing is overpowered and undercosted at the same time, probably trying to sell the damn model.
• The design seems to be all over the place; incredibly inconsistent with its pricing:power and inconsistent with the fluff as well.

The only redeeming quality is the magic, and the funny/sad/pitiful part of it is that the magic is EXACTLY the same as the Warriors of Chaos magic that came out a month ago.  There is literally nothing different except for the Boon.

I feel truly sad for all WHFB Daemon players for this disgraceful attempt at an army book.  Although the power level of the 7th Ed. book was way up there, it was well-written and had the tons of viable options/army builds, enough so players both casual and competitive can enjoy. This new book does not.

I'm at a loss of words, I can't even say that the other designers kept Mat Ward on a leash because of the power of the previous book.  I feel that all the creative process was stripped and this book was the red-headed step child of the 40K book.  In fact, that's exactly what it feels like:  They took the 40k book, gutted it and made a hastily and poorly-made translation to the Fantasy engine.

Some quick demon tips

Hot, hot, hot.

Alright, now that the book is out, let's see what kind of silly stuff you can do with it.

Off the top of my head (in list format!).

General

• Make sure to take unit champions for all your units that can.  This does a few good things:  Gives you a cheap challenger that has an Master-Crafted AP2 weapon that strikes at I, decreases the chance the "3" roll on the Warpstorm table will hit one of your characters that matter, and further increases the amount of attacks the unit can have for half the price.
• The faction-specific banners aren't always a must-buy, but all of them are very good.  It completely depends what you need the unit to do:  Bloodcrushers will always buy it to reach combat quickly, but Slaanesh might not need it because he thinks he can just kill the unit in one go, or that believes WS5 is good enough.  Save whatever points you can.  Normal banners should only be on the units that you plan on deploying first.
• Instruments, on the other hand, are a must-have on units that have critical battlefield roles.  All big units should have Instruments, all important fighting units that can carry them should.  A prime example of this would be my 20-man unit of Daemonettes with re-roll Herald.  An example of an unit that you shouldn't have it on would be a 10-man unit of backfield-capping Plaguebearers who you want coming in later in the game anyway.  It goes without saying that Instruments also prevent your units from being smited by your rival god.
• Don't forget that Greater Demons (including the named ones) make your Daemon Princes Heavy.  If you want a flying circus, now's the time to let it loose.  Just remember that you're T5 and are subject to ID now.

40K Review: Chaos Daemons

Just throwin' it out there.

Truth be told, this is probably one of the most controversial books ever written.  Did you see just how much internet hype there was?  I'm talking about negative energy, the world is ending, and that the army is unplayable kind of hype.  Don't worry guys, hopefully this review will clear some stuff up.

Before I go any deeper, I want to give brief overview of how I'm going to do this review and how things will be slightly different.  I will touch upon three major categories:  Overall Design, Internal Balance and External Balance.  You can find out what these terms mean here.

I will not go through each and every unit, instead, I will give you an more design-driven analysis of how the book turned out.  Let's begin shall we?

Tz Flamer Chariot WTF?!

I CAN'T SHOOT!

The exalted flamer is the rider of the chariot.
All the shots come from him.
He does not have relentless.
His two firing modes are both Heavy.

The chariot is fast, skimmer, open top, chariot.

Does this seriously mean the chariot can't move to fire its weapons?!

How terrible is that?!

What happened to Daemons in WHFB?

Looks like 40K only..

Here is what I hear in the WHFB side of things:

I hear Nurgle units are the only ones worth taking.
Beasts are a must have and Fiends are crap.
Gifts can only be exchanged for magic weapons.
Heralds limited to Lv.1 Wizards, except for Tz at Lv.2.
Khorne locus that gives Hatred costs almost as much as he does.
No armor options and decreased ward saves on the GDs.
And there's no dispel scroll.
The Skull Cannon is ridiculously underpriced while the new Tz Chariot is terrible.
Even the lores are exactly the same as the WoC ones.. aside from the lore attribute being different.

How did one of the best designed books (aside from power level) turn into a disaster.

Anyone got some info out there?  Written by Mat Ward.

Finalizing my Demons list

Time to finalize.

Now that we know what the Banners and Icons do, I think it's time to finish off this army list with some stuff. I've definitely decided to go with a pure Slaanesh and Tzeentch army, and kept only the units I liked visually. Honestly, when playing Daemons, I don't think you can take things too seriously with so many random effects going off left and right.  I think this is going to be a very good book, although the first couple of tidbits made us all very worried.

Here is what the list looks like currently:


1992

HQ:
Lv.3 Telepathy Keeper of Secrets = 270
2 Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift

Lv.3 Divination Herald of Tzeentch = 120
Disc

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Herald of Slaanesh = 85
1 Lesser Gift, Exalted Locus

Masque of Slaanesh = 75

TROOP:
20x Daemonettes (Slaanesh Banner, IoC) = 210
20x Daemonettes (Banner, IoC) = 190
10x Daemonettes = 90
10x Daemonettes = 90

FAST ATTACK:
9x Screamers = 225

ELITE:
9x Flamers of Tz (Pyrocaster) = 212

HEAVY:
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110
Tz Chariot (Blue Horror) = 110

Other possible units to add and try:
20x Seekers of Slaanesh, Slaanesh Banner, Instrument of Chaos

led by a Herald on a Seeker, with Seduction and an lesser gift

What do you guys think of the list?  Any suggestions on what I can add/try?

Building Demons - Thinking Outloud

Shit just got real man.

If you guys saw my last brainstorm, you'll know that before I saw any rules/points, I already had an idea of what I want.

Here is what I wrote previously:

• The army will be led by a Keeper of Secrets.
• The army will also have a Lord of Change if I like the rules, or just two smaller heralds.
• The army will have several units of Daemonettes - I was thinking maybe 12 in each squad; 6x2.
• The army will also have 12 Seekers.  Love the models, the style, looks good man.
• The army will have 9 Flamers of Tzeentch.  Love the models, the rules look good too.
• The army will have 6 Fiends of Slaanesh.  The models are great, the rules are great, they definitely scream Slaanesh like crazy.
• The army will have 3 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch.  Why?  Because I am in LOVE with the models.  Plus I hear they're the best anti-tank in the army.

Now that the rules are here, let's revisit the army with the new rules.

The army will definitely have a Keeper of Secrets still, even though the Lord of Change seems like an extremely potent choice.  Let's go over the two and compare them:

Finally, solid Demons info

TALK ABOUT RANDOM!@^#

Will be updated as we go!
UPDATED: 12:00 PST 2-28-13

Some info on Icons and the Blue Scrubes:

Icons and Banners act like homing beacons for deep striking units.

If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from the same deity, they don't scatter within 6" of the icon.
If the icon and deep striking daemon(s) are from different deities, the deep striking unit (when aiming for a spot within 6" of the icon) only scatters 1D6" instead of 2D6"
If one of the units (icon or deep striking) hasn't got the Daemon special rule, the icon has no effect whatsoever.

Standard icon costs 10 points, +10 points for a god specific icon.

There are several different icons for the different gods:

Khorne: Unit may attack 6+D6" (once per game)
Tzeentch: Inflicts 2D6 S4 AP- hits to a unit you shoot at (must declare before; once per game)
Nurgle: All attacks count as Poison (2+) (must declare before close combat; once per game)
Slaanesh: In close combat: takes D3 WS from enemy units in combat; Slaanesh units are immune (once per game)

Instruments have two purposes:

1) If a unit with an instruments comes into game via reserve, you can immediately get another daemon unit out of reserve (they don't have to roll)
2) If you roll on the warpstorm table and get e.g. the result where Khorne attacks Slaanesh units, you may re-roll ONE DIE that could be harmful for your Slaanesh models PER instrument of Khorne in your army and on the table (and of course in any other god combination, too).

Instruments of Chaos cost 10 points.

You place a magic marker next to them each time a psyker on the board successfully casts a spell. At the beginning of you turn you throw a D6 for each marker. For each 6 a single friendly psyker within 12" of the Blue Scribes gains a warp point. Then the magic markers are removed.

Also, at the beginning of your turn you choose one of the magic disciplines from the rulebook and throw a D6. The result cannot be swapped for the primaris power. The spell is then cast without a psychic test and it doesn't need warp energy (don't know the correct English terms).

Costs 9x9 = 81 points

War Lord Table:
1)Warlord gains Instant Death USR
2)Warlord and his unit gain Hatred (Everything) USR
3)As long as the War Lord is alive, your opponent test for Fear at -1 LD
4) As Long as the War Lord is alive, units within 12” of the War Lord may re-roll Daemonic Instability
5) As long as the War Lord is alive, you may re-roll results on the Warp Storm Table
6)Units with the Daemon USR may Deep Strike within 6” of the War Lord without scatter.

lesser/greater/exhaulted locus is 10/20/30

Lastly, the Chariot does not have Screamer attacks:

no, no screamer attacks. the flamer however can attack.

Demonic Brainstorm

There be demons..

First, if I go Demons, should I do fantasy square bases or 40K bases?  I think I want to play the army in 40K more simply because I like their mechanics a little more.  The idea of demons marching across the field in organized ranks always bothered me.. but them appearing out of nowhere via DS is awesome!  I also like look of the round bases a lot more.  Hmm... I think I just answered my own question.. but I want your guys input as well.

Alright guys, what do you think of this brainstorm without seeing any of the new rules?
Without seeing any of the points yet, this is what I want to construct:

The army will be led by a Keeper of Secrets.
The army will also have a Lord of Change if I like the rules, or just two smaller heralds.
The army will have several units of Daemonettes - I was thinking maybe 12 in each squad; 6x2.
The army will also have 12 Seekers.  Love the models, the style, looks good man.
The army will have 9 Flamers of Tzeentch.  Love the models, the rules look good too.
The army will have 6 Fiends of Slaanesh.  The models are great, the rules are great, they definitely scream Slaanesh like crazy.
The army will have 3 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch.  Why?  Because I am in LOVE with the models.  Plus I hear they're the best anti-tank in the army.

What do I do about anti-air?  Maybe the Lord of Change will help since it flies.  Other than that, I have no clue.  Even though Soul Grinders get Skyfire in the new rules, I don't like the mechanical hybrid looking thing of it all.  It's just not very.. demon-ish to me.  Of course, there's always the idea of allying in CSM with a Lv.3 Sorc for cheap buffs, a big unit of CSM with ADL to hold a point, and a Helldrake because they're incredible.  Sadly, I'm not a fan of the model as it falls into the same category as the Soul Grinder aesthetically.

I've decided to go with a Slaanesh and Tzeentch theme.  They hate Khorne and Nurgle and thus, I will not going that way.  Besides, I think I've had enough of Khorne and Nurgle.  Slaanesh and Tz will give me a lot of Rending, flamer templates, powerful high S low AP attacks, and the best of all, speed.

I haven't been this excited for a release since.. I can't even remember.  And to think High Elves and Eldar are later this year.. shit's gonna get expensive!  Thankfully I've sold my Death Guard, Blood Angels and Cygnar to fuel all this.