Sunday, November 14, 2010

DE vs. Mech IG and Tyranids

I don't normally take anything from Warseer seriously because most of that forum is filled with terribads and trigger happy mods.  Good thing that once in a while, I'll run across a thread or two that's actually worth a damn.

The topic of the day here is about footslogging IG being a problem for Dark Eldar.  Umm.. no.  I don't know how many times people have tried to talk across the table in 5th Ed. and have lost.  If you're not playing Castle Eldar or Horde Orks w/ Killakanz then I have no idea what you're doing outside of transports.  The only time I've seen Horde IG work was against 50/50 Blood Angels list because there's too many IG dudes to kill before they shoot you to death.  Seriously, one of the worst things to happen to assault units this edition is not being able to consolidate back into assault.  You know what, I really hope next edition features some kind of "overrun" option for assault troops winning combat.  In this edition, you almost always want to stay in combat so you don't get fucking shot in the face by Mech IG's 3 billion AP3/2 blast weapons before you can do anything heroic.

Against DE, the only type of "footslog" I can see is a good portion of Chimeras and Auto-cannon HWT spam.  I'm telling you right now, point for point, AC HWTs is going to stomp most DE players if they're taking a good amount of Raiders.  I predict Mech IG will have little problem with the Dark Eldar book.

Like Vaktathi explains in the Dark Eldar vs. Mech IG matchup:

I honestly have a hard time thinking of a worse army for DE to have to face than mech IG. The popular Soul-trap/huskblade combo on your HQ? pointless (most IG armies have no IC's and there are no MC's in the army). Expensive incubi unit? Overkill against infantry and worthless against tanks. Wyches/Wracks? You don't need anything that CC specialized to smash guardsmen in CC. Heat Lances? Worse against AV12 than a normal meltagun in terms of average armor penetration. 4+ Poisoned weapons on everything? Sorta weak against T3 5+sv infantry (awesome when one can rapid fire a wraithlord to death with basic guns, not so awesome when they aren't that amazing against basic IG infantry). Power through Pain? Great, you have to shoot up a bunch of tanks, *then* kill a bunch of infantry to get a pain token, which gives DE units FNP, negated by the massed Autocannon/Multilaser fire and anything heavier that IG tend to bring in droves (and the second and third pain tokens are of far more dubious value). The basic Chimera is a nightmare for DE. Lots of Dark Lances? Great, they hit on a 3, glance AV12 on a 4 and pen on a 5 and kill on a 5+ penn.  Multilasers hit only on a 4, but glance/pen on the same value back, but kill on a 4+ pen/6+ glance, with *3* times as many shots, and Heavy Bolters can kill any vehicle in the army as well. Blasters? They do to IG tanks and infantry what *grenade launchers* do back to DE vehicles and infantry (aside from the Lance being incredibly useful against Leman Russ tanks, definite point there) with twice the range and a Blast mode.

DE aren't a bad army at all, rather they look to be very good against most opponents with the exception of IG, and most especially mech IG. If anything, I'd expect to seem them push many IG players *to* mech instead of *away* from mech. DE are an army that is wonderful at destroying large units, very tough units, IC's/MC's, and expensive and highly capable units. They fall flat very hard when trying to deal with lots of weeny stuff, as most of their stuff is grossly overkill and results in being rather wasted points.

I honestly have to agree with him.  Dark Eldar is overkill vs. the entire IG army that points for points, they lose in effectiveness.  S8 Lance weapons are mediocre vs. AV12 Chimeras and they can field a lot more tanks that can fight you for better points.  I'm not going to explain it any further because I think Vaktathi did a good job, so I'm going to leave it at that.

Now another thread that I noticed in the Dark Eldar matchup discussions was the OMG Tyranids are going to get raped! thread.  Now this thread is seriously funny.  Yeah, Poison Weapons and Agonizers is going to shit on your big beasts and yeah, Dark Lance spam is going to shut down Warriors.. but hey guess what?  That's the metagame.  Adapt or die - take more cheap Hormagaunts and try out Venomthropes instead of massing Swarmlord tactics and Trygons.  Kthx.


yergerjo said...

Things will not change for us vs IG. The Chimera is the best "Anti-DE" vehicle in the game, regardless of DE Codex. Strangely, while our Dark Lances make AV 14 feel like paper (considering it as AV 12) vs AV 12 we can't do squat (unless my rolling is just that horri-bad).

Muti-Lasers, Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamers on the Chimera. This is the best tool box against us. Yes, Autocannon HWT are bad for us, especially with Twin Linking or Re Roll Cover Saves for orders; now both units are even better since the Autocannon and Multi-Laser will ignore our Feel No Pain (when we manage to get it).

Same as before, vs IG we gotta go first and start popping things; Target Priority = Hydras then the Chimera's.

Unknown said...

Good Article. If Warseer is shit in your mind, what's your thoughts on DakkaDakka?

Anonymous said...

Hmm ranting about mech IG being the bane of DE and then going on to say that Tyranids should just adapt or die does seem like a strange argument in my book.
Mech IG is the bane of all other armies from my experience. Although if someone knows of an army that deals swift and brutal jugdement to mech IG. Please let me know:P
I would argue atleast from paper, as I havn't had the pleasure to play vs those lovely new DE models. That DE is very much the bane of Tyranids. Anything Tyranids have as an advantage is easly countered by Dark Eldar units. Even if we ignore all the lovely stuff as str 8 ap 2 spam or mass poison weapons. We still have the problem of killing super fast skimmers that can just stay out of hive guard range before moving in for the kill. Catching and killing fast skimmers in close combat is pretty darn hard.

Anonymous said...

Many mech guard players have already found themselves hopelessly outranged and even kited by my archon's court. Alpha striking the hydras out of commision allows a cunning archon to mow down 2-3 chimeras a turn without fear of 36" in return fire.

Trueborn with four blasters in 10 man fully kitted squads are the bane of mech ig, not the other way around.

HERO said...

Well, one of my lists has the entire army shielded with Night Shields so I think my superior range and speed should take out a lot of Chimeras (hopefully). Another good option vs. Mech IG's Chimera line is Aethersail Raiders loaded with Haywire Wyches. Multiple assaults on various that's only moved 6" or hasn't moved will do wonders.

Another great tactic (depending on how many Dark Lances you have) is to start 3 Ravagers on the flank and have the rest of your Raiders push from two directions. That way, the Chimera's AV10 sides will be vulnerable no matter where he is as long as he decides to shoot at something.

Urien said...

Handle it!

Dave said...

Now another thread that I noticed in the [Guard] matchup discussions was the OMG [Dark Eldar] are going to get raped! thread. Now this thread is seriously funny... but hey guess what? That's the metagame. Adapt or die - Kthx.

kaintxu said...

Hi there, any chances you could explain what castle Eldar are please?

BTW, i totally agree with you, the only benefit Eldar have is the Moving 12" ans shotting so you can get some of his stuff while avoiding other stuff

yergerjo said...

Castle Eldar is Footdar.

Wraithguard and Wraithlords, chilling in the corner waiting for you to come to them.

Gyre said...

It's actually ironic. Based on fluff you would expect armies like Imperial Guard to struggle against fast moving psychological armies like the Dark Eldar. In any case I still expect the Dark Eldar to struggle against a lot of armies for two reasons. AV 10 and saves of 5+/6+. Sure, if they can get into combat they'll have a good chance but expect the first turn to be painful.

kaintxu said...

But with your short range, and low ammount of shooting, what bennefit does it have to chill in the corner? mostly everyone is going to outshoot you right?

Is it 1 or 2 Wraithguard units?

Kuolema said...

"If you're not playing Castle Eldar or Horde Orks w/ Killakanz then I have no idea what you're doing outside of transports"

Neither of those armies are competitive, some armies can be competitive without transports but it sure isn't eldar or orks.

Blood angels are capable of running several different competitive jumper lists and vanilla marine pure bikers or any nid list don't have any transports either. Hybrid tau are also competitive with only 1-2 transports in their whole army.

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