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| Is this DE kicking IG ass? Only in GW's magical fantasy. |
I've been playing Dark Eldar for a very long time (14 years now), and I have been very successful both in a casual setting, and in a competitive setting. What you might not know, is that I have done it all these years playing pure Kabal aka no Haemonculi units at all. I do not like the look, the fluff, the feel, or the look, yes, that gets hit twice.
You can find many of my articles on my gaming blog, and most of the lists and tactics there will still apply with this new book. So without further ado, let's get down to business, to defeat the huns (basically everyone that's not the Dark Kin).
Here are some key notes that I will write out first:
- The HQ section is really tricky for me because right now, I do not like the Succubus in her current place. She went up in price, lost a lot of cheap weapon options, and the newer weapon options seems like you need the stars to be aligned to get any real profit. The reason why I took her in the past is because 1. Wyches were good, 2. Thus allowing me to have a reason to take them and put them into combat, and 3. She was cheaper with better weapon options.
- The Archon is not looking so bad in comparison. Sure, his Huskblade now sucks, he lost combat drugs, and he's pretty much a more expensive and useless version of his Craftworld cousin who comes with a 4++, an awesome ability and is only 10 points more. When you compare this to the fact we have to buy the Clonefield, you pretty much want to torture the GW designers, but its OK, let's move on. So you look at the Archon and you see a couple of neat things. The first one is the Shadowfield being able to tank all the shots in any given phase: Let's say he's in front of a unit of Wyches (for some reason) and your opponent opens an entire squad of Tacs on him. Cool, take it all on the Archon, for his shield doesn't go away until the end of the phase. Sure, he might die horribly, but this option is still there. He is also the cheapest option to buy a WWP, which can lead to all kinds of cool possibilities. I'm not sure if I like the investment factor yet, as +35 points for it is still much better for Eldar than it is for us (mainly because they can hit harder via Wraithguard and Fire Dragons). Lastly, he is a Blaster caddy, very cheap, 75 points gives you an HQ that can shoot a lance from 18" away at BS7.
- Combat obj-sec still comes in the way of Wyches. I have 40 of the damn suckers and I'll be damned if someone will tell me they're useless. Sure, they're not as multi-purposed, but hopefully on a decent drug roll you can still apply 1 unit of these girls into someone's face with decent chances of holding them up or killing some of them. These girls are also the only way to deliver a combat Archon (hurr hurr) or Succubus, but I would much rather do a Succubus because of her high I which will allow you to sweep units much more easily. Just be careful who you're actually challenging and be careful on the layout of your characters.
- Then comes the workhorse of the list itself: Min Raiders used for capping and Lance support, and then fully upgraded Gunboats that come with all the bells and whistles. Before I talk about this in more depth, I want to touch upon how I feel about Night Shields. To me, they're very expensive for +1 cover. If you guys are used to having a blank board where your DE are being shot all the time, this might be worth the investment, but if you consider the fact that they're literally a quarter of the price of that paper airplane Raider that you're flying, you might as well face the facts here. That vehicle is going to die, either by sheer number of glance/pens or there's Ignore Cover in the game. In order for you to make a cost-effective choice whether or not to take Night Shields, you have to analyze your meta: Do you play with a lot of ruins and builds and cover that will allow you to gain natural cover, do you have a lot of opponents that take Tau or Eldar (Ignore Cover), are you in open ground a lot? All of these things matter when you're making this choice.
- Now, onto the actual discussion about Warriors. You will always take a Blaster first and foremost. Whether or not you rock them in a cheap ass Raider boat, they will be a mini-Ravager for you that can reach out and touch something with high-powered shots. Otherwise, they will be mainstay damage dealers focused on killing enemy infantry. This means that you're taking a full unit, Blaster, Splinter Cannon (maybe), inside a Raider with at least Aethersails and the mandatory Splinter Racks. The main difference from this is that one unit is a solid support piece and is cheaper, and the other is an expensive (for what it does) infantry-shredder that makes Tyranids slimey tears.
- Venoms are still in, in fact, a lot of people urge that they're the thing to go. I, however, completely disagree with this because the meta is filled with a lot of Tau big-suits, flying Demon FMC, double Dakkaflyrant, and Mechdar with plenty of WS. You need Lances in order to touch some of these things, or at least threaten them with invul/cover saves and not their standard armor save. This is why I like to be lance-heavy on the ships, and poison-heavy on the occupants. With WWP in the game, reserve manipulation via Eldar allies (boo-hiss), and Venoms in our inventory, we will hopefully have the tools for the job regardless of matchup.
- You must vow to always take Aethersails on every single one of your vehicles if you can spare the points. Why? Because this is the best single upgrade to be given to our codex, as the thought of 24" consistent TB for 5 points gives even the saddest Archon a raging hard-on. This will allow you to relocate behind enemy vehicles from a poor DS, find cover behind the most unlikely of places, or allow you to fully take advantage of obj-sec when you need it most. DE is all about mobility and no single upgrade captures this as well as this 5 point upgrade. In fact, it's such a given that you should just pretend all your vehicles costs 5 points more, minus Ravagers of course.
So which units are actually useful for the purposes of this discussion? I encourage you guys to FIGHT me on this. As it stands..
- Archon - Viable, one of our few HQ choices, has some good stuff going for him mentioned above.
Archon Court- I just don't like these guys because it further compounds the fact that you're trying to keep things cheap and min-max cost. If you think the AP3 flamers will benefit your army because of your meta, please, by all means keep them.- Succubus - One of our few HQs and viable because of her CC abilities.
Lelith Hesperax- Too expensive for she offers IMO. If only her A League Apart just flat out re-roll hits and wounds she would be a much better buy.Drazhar- Too expensive.- Kabalite Warriors - Our bread and butter unit that can fit anywhere and in any way.
- Wyches - The only way to deliver our CC boys and girls, but they were nerfed themselves to be not as multi-functional. I am fine with that, as long as you guys are willing to accept this fate as well.
Incubi- No grenades, no buy. Their high-I killing potential is literally wasted if their defenders can kill T3 3+ models (which should be everyone).- Mandrakes - They're ugly, no one owns these guys, but they got better and can potentially harass enemy troops. I bet they're meta-dependent because I play in a pretty mechanized meta, these guys are no good for me.
Beastmasters- With the Baron or someone to tank for them, I think they got a lot worse. The lack of WWP utility also hurts them a lot.- Raiders - Bread and butter transport with anti-tank potential.
- Venoms - Bread and butter transport with anti-infantry potential.
Hellions- Garbage units, don't even bother.- Reavers - Yes, these guys are really good. They lose a lot of movement opportunities for damage, but they got cheaper and have Rending HoW. Not bad overall.
- Razorwing - Got 5 points cheaper if you take them with Lances, and I encourage all of you to do so because you need something to shoot things out of the air. Keep them cheap, buy multiples.
- Scourges - One of the best things we have our book as you guys probably noticed. Haywires is a solid answer but so are DS Heat Lances. However, you have to admit that these guys are still bare-naked ladies with the amount of protection they have going for them.
- Ravagers - The Ravager is still viable despite its many nerfs. The lack of Aerial Assault will hurt them greatly since that can be the difference between a side-shot vs. front, cover or no cover. Some people seem to think that Scourges will replace these guys, but I don't think so. The AV11 will put them out of kill potential for Bolters and immune to small-arms fire that can threaten Scourges.
- Voidraven Bombers - Take them cheap and keep them that way. Just buy the 160 stock and they should be worth their points with their Blast Lances. Void Lances are also very solid at killing enemy armor and flyers, so the decision is whether or not you want to subject them to AT/Flyer or killing ground units.
OK, enough with the boring, now onto actual list construction. With each of these lists, I'll note some thinking behind it and hopefully draw some discussions from it.
1850
19 KP
HQ:
Archon, Blaster = 75
Autarch = 70*
TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, SC, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 185
10x Warriors, Blaster, SC, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 185
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*
FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140
HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Very little change to how I ran DE last book, with some major notes. First, the Autarch to call in reserves when we want, in combination with me dropping the Night Shields from all my vehicles. I took 2 units of Dire Avengers here and have the Archon in one of the 5-man boats acting as a psuedo-lancer, while the Autarch rides in the safety of his broken WS. Two Razorwings will be in Reserve, complete with any other Gunboats I deem not safe for the battlefield while my Ravagers seek targets of opportunity.
1750
18 KP
HQ:
Archon, Blaster = 75
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*
TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*
FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140
HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*
Just an example of how things can be trimmed down with the same mentality. The Autarch can actually go into a Raider boat this time to apply his Fusion Gun into someone's face. With the decreased points, I somehow managed to fit in a Night Spinner to mess with my opponents.
1847
18 KP
HQ:
Archon, Shadowfield, Blaster, Agonizer, Haywire = 145
TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/NS/AS = 135
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/NS/AS = 135
9x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/NS/AS/SR = 177
10x Warriors, Blaster, SCannon, Raider Lance/NS/AS/SR = 200
10x Warriors, Blaster, SCannon, Raider Lance/NS/AS/SR = 200
10x Warriors, Blaster, SCannon, Raider Lance/NS/AS/SR = 200
FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140
HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Here is an example of a pure DE list, fully loaded with all the bells and whistles. You now load up everything with Splinter Cannons and Night Shields, this adds about +30 to every Raider so its a good amount of points. The Archon is also built to be well-rounded, doing a little bit of shooting, a little bit of fighting, and probably a whole lot of nothing because he's overpriced.
1845
19 KP
HQ:
Succubus, Glaive, Blast Pistol, Haywire = 115
TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
9x Wyches, Hekatrix/Haywire, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 185
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140
HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
This one is actually pretty hilarious, showing you just how many points you can save if you took out those meta-dependent upgrades. At this point, I'm just not convinced that the 4/6 Salvo on the SC is worth the 15 points, I'm leaning towards no, because you're just missing out on a few shots if the dude still had his Splinter Rifle. Anyways, look at the prices! All of a sudden you can take 3x Razorwings in the same list, while keeping the rest of your army mechanized and looking damn fine.
+++++
There are tons of more lists I plan on constructing, so I'll be actively this thread periodically as I flood the page with lists and ideas. This is only the surface area guys, there's still tons of lists to be had with Scourges, WWP play, Eldar allies, heavy-Eldar emphasis, the lists go on and on.
I welcome every one of you share some of your lists so we can collaborate together.
Thanks for toning down the hate. I actually read the whole article and not just the comments b section for lols. With some clever thinking I believe we can make this work.
ReplyDeleteI think a a Court of 12 Lhamaeans (or 9 if you want to load them with an IC escort like a Succubus or tricked out Archon in a Raider) is actually a pretty solid substitute for Wyches... For exactly the same price you have an identical statline, except you get I5 (versus I6 for Wyches) and gain Ld 9 (versus Ld 8 for basic Wyches). Wargear wise you lose grenades ( a pretty significant loss), but gain a 5+ save (versus the 6+ leotard save of Wyches). Most signifcantly, you don't have the 4++ in close combat and Combat Drugs, but in their place you get a Poison 2+ weapon that causes ID on to Wounds of 6.... That is WAY better than anything the Wyches can hope to have offensively. On the charge against MEQs, 9 Lhamaeans get 27 attacks, 13-14 hits, 11-12 wounds, and about 4 dead Power Armor models, all at I5, before the 6 remaining MEQs strike back, causing 3 hits, 2 wounds, and about 1 unsaved wounds on the Lhameaens.... 9 Wyches with +1S (from combat drugs) get 27 attacks, 13-14 hits, 6-7 wounds, about 2 dead Space Marines.... 8 space Marines strike back, causing 4 hits, 2-3 wounds, and 1-2 unsaved wounds.... So, Lhamaeans come out on top... If you go up against tougher units or units with multiple wounds (like MCs), the Lhameaens get even better with their 2+ poisen and 6s for ID.... Not as good of a tar pit as Wyches and no chance at Objective Secured, but overall I think Lhameans have a better value than their Wych equivelants.
ReplyDeleteOo, I like that. Good thinking, but quick question. Why would you charge when you can just apply AP3 flamer to their face?
ReplyDeleteWhat are your thoughts on the coven elements? I dont see the point of wracks and cant see how they didnt just make them troops by default, but haemonculous' and grotesques seem worth a look in.
ReplyDeleteI had thought the llhamean looked an interesting replacement for wyches for the same points aswell, but i think if youre taking the court, its the medusae all the way for me.
I still really dont like mandrakes. i dont see them doing loads in combat and theyve basically got storm bolters, is that what we really need?
I'll be looking forward to hearing how you get on actually trying out wyches, as i'd hate to see those lovely models left on the shelf for the next however many years (next to all those hellions...sigh)
My group tends to play 1500 point games and this is the list i'll be running for my first crack with the new book this weekend:
Haemonculous, armour of misery, liquifier gun
4 Grotesques, raider, night shields, aether sails.
10 warriors, blaster, disi raider, night shields, aether sails
10 warriors, blaster, disi raider, night shields, aether sails
5 Scourges, 4 haywire blasters
5 scourges, 4 haywire blasters
6 reavers, 2 heat lances, 1 cluster caltrops
razorwing, dark lances
razorwing, dark lances.
Yeah, i know, running the realspace raiders means i lose ob-sec. But judging by my other experiences of DE in 6th/7th im not sure im really expecting warriors in a raider to be alive by turn 5 anyway.
Im thinking the 2nd scourges squad might be better off as a 2nd reaver squad for the added survivability and mobility, but we'll see.
"You must vow to always take Aethersails on every single one of your vehicles if you can spare the points. Why? Because this is the best single upgrade to be given to our codex, as the thought of 24" consistent TB without shooting penalty (for the occupants inside, compared to last book) for 5 points gives even the saddest Archon a raging hard-on."
ReplyDeleteYou've said similar about a change in no shooting penalty in other places and its been confusing. You still can't fire in the same phase that you take advantage of the aethersail, so it doesn't seem like a change in that case. More consistent bonus movement though. Am I missing something?
Read the entry for Aethersails in the previous codex.
ReplyDeleteThe old version states "passengers may not shoot in the shooting phase." So in both the old and new the passengers are disallowed from firing. The old version by way of its rules, the new version by way of moving flat out disallowing shooting. So no real change as far as shooting penalty.
ReplyDeleteSelective reading much? "...and the vehicle and its passengers may not shoot in the FOLLOWING Shooting phase." Pg. 63, Vehicle Armory, 5th Ed. Dark Eldar Codex.
ReplyDeleteGrabbed it from from the internet -- source made it seem like a verbatim. But it remains the same. The following shooting phase, the one following the movement phase in which you used the aethersail. But your snark makes it obviousl you ffeel very strongly it affected the next phase (which also makes no sense but whatever).
ReplyDeleteAny case it no longer applies so if you are happy about the new aethersails then more power to ya.
It's fine, sorry for being snark, I just really hate false quotes. I took out the confusing parts in the article above.
ReplyDeleteList looks good and is well thought out. I don't like Dissies on Gunboats because if the dudes inside are itching for targets, a S8 AP2 Lance will have a better chance at destroying X transport. I'm with you all the way on the layout of those Scourges, but I still don't think they can replace Ravagers. Let me know how that works out for ya.
ReplyDeleteThe hate is still going strong, I'm just choosing to ignore it and focus on what can realistically work (which isn't much).
ReplyDeleteNo worries. Look forward to more articles
ReplyDeleteI'm just not feeling ravagers anymore, having to pay more for something that wasnt great and got worse seems like such a rum deal.
ReplyDeleteHonestly it may well be bias due to the fact that i never got around to buying more than 1 ravager last time and ive already got all the rest of that stuff, i guess time will tell.
Your reasoning on the lances boats is certainly sound, my thinking was im going to be jinking 75% of the time anyway and 3 anti infantry (or maybe light armour) shots from the dissis is more likely to do something than 1 lance shot.
Im thinking a plan with the raiders may well be to just shove them down the opponents throat as a sort of 'look at me! im here!' unit to deflect attention away from all the fragile dangerous stuff.
Played my game yesterday vs drop pod heavy space wolves. We ran maelstrom of war (mostly to try and justify my having bought the DE card set i think) but i've really grown to loathe that format. Despite what should be the obvious benefits for a fast moving army (as long as you draw the right missions).
ReplyDeleteThe game played out very similarly to how my dark eldar games used to go before 6th/7th. The first turn or 2 looked like i was going to totally run away with it then the wolves started to claw it back and by the end i only had a couple of units left and had lost by something like 12 VPs to 6.
I was somewhat unfortunate in that all 4 of my reserve units (the scourges and razorwings) failed to arrive turn 2, if even one of the razorwings had turned up i think the game wouldve gone very different.
It wasnt the utter tonking ive been used to though, so thats a plus, and i certainly made one or 2 errors on the table and in list construction. the haemonculous didnt really work and hes getting swapped for a succubus with glaive. The 2 units of scourges with HWB were really awkward as their only real targets were drop pods until his flyer went into hover mode (by which point the scourges were dead) so im looking at swapping 1 unit to heat lances so they can at least just shoot dudes in those awkward matchups.
The reavers did okay and actually survived till the end (albeit with 1 guy left)
And i actually had a whole squad of warriors in a raider left standing. Bearing in mind it went the full 7 turns i found that quite surprising.
Getting another game in on friday where i'll be making those changes (though we may be playing 1850, if so i'll be adding a dark artisan formation of a haemie with WWP, talos and cronos with spirit probe)